Engineered Reform with RJ Hill

Gene Liverman: 0:05

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the volunteer technologist podcast. Here we take a look at the different ways that people who are technically inclined volunteer outside of their primary job. Today I'm joined by RJ Hill, and he's going to talk to us about the volunteer work he does with an organization called Engineered Reform. Hi, RJ, how's it going?

RJ Hill: 0:28

Hey, Gene, it's going really well, actually,

Gene Liverman: 0:31

I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me about this and have no all I know about Engineered Reform so far, is that it has something to do with helping people who are in or were recently in prison, better themselves and find jobs and are related to technology. So I'd love to hear what you have to say about that. But also, I'd like to hear a little bit about who you are so our audience has an idea of who it is. It's talking to me.

RJ Hill: 0:59

That's fair. Yeah. So I'm RJ Hill. I've been I've been around for a while I met gene, probably like, we're going on 15 years, something like that. Yeah, I think so about Yeah, met Gene like 15, 20 years ago, and we were both working in it. And we went we both kind of followed the same trajectory just in different different directions, up through the the kind of technology stack. And now I work at a company called chipper cash as a cloud engineer, and on a very small team, which I love. I love small teams, just doing cloud engineering stuff. So that's me. Very cool. Yeah. And so engineer reform, you're absolutely right gene engineer perform. Basically, our goal is to reduce the rate of recidivism, right. And we can do that by when folks are coming out of prison, helping them kind of build the foundations to become a technologist, right, and that doesn't, that doesn't necessarily take out entrepreneurship or anything, it's kind of all encompassing, right. So they could go work for a company, or they could start their own company. That sounds perfectly up to them. And so once they get that stable foundation of, of technology, they can kind of go whichever way they want. And the whole entire point of that piece of it is they've got a stable foundation for tech, now they can create a stable foundation for the rest of their life as well. Right. So it's going to lead to a solid income, hopefully stable housing, stable transportation, things like that stable. mental and physical health and well being things like that. So that's, that's, that's what our aim is, it doesn't necessarily have to be someone who, who is or was in prison. It can be people in recovery, it can be people who are just neurodiverse and falling on some hard times, because a lot of the neuro diversity folks have have a difficult time with police officers. So when when they get into a situation where maybe they're homeless or something like that, and they have those interactions, it can escalate very quickly. So again, just kind of pulling pulling them out of that situation, getting them the stable foundation that they need, and getting them stable housing, staple transportation, and all that.

Gene Liverman: 3:39

So in this particular context, when you're referring to neurodiverse, I'm guessing you're talking more on the the mental illness side of things, as opposed to the part of neurodiversity that is things like ADHD and that kind of stuff, or are you talking

RJ Hill: 3:57

all of it? Okay. Yeah. Because so unfortunately, this this is the kind of the, the bad news about it. Unfortunately, a lot of those pieces, like let's let's just do, let's just use autism, right, as a piece. A lot of folks who are autistic also have other mental challenges. Right? So they don't, unfortunately, most of the time when you have some sort of mental illness or some sort of mental disability it's rarely on accompanied by my something else. It's rarely flying solo, in your noggin, so yeah, we try to cover all of it and actually, we've we've got this really awesome human his name's Henry. We just started working with him about a week and a half ago, and we've already got him stable housing. We're looking at getting him stable transportation. We've got him a laptop that's coming to them and And I've got him a subscription to Pluralsight for the year. And we'll just, we're just working on getting him, getting him stable, get super clean to Tech,

Gene Liverman: 5:10

I know with a tremendous number of the employment opportunities that are out there. Being qualified for the job is one thing, but without transportation. So many of them are just off the table like they won't hire you. If you don't have stable transportation, is that seem to be hold true with the town jobs or helping people work for? Or does the technological aspects of the tendency for remote work in the IT field? Does that help alleviate some of the needs for the transportation side?

RJ Hill: 5:46

Yeah, you nailed that, it definitely helps with some of it. There are some companies out there who are still in our post post COVID sort of mindset, where they're thinking, we still need people coming into the office, we need face time, we can't run, we can't run a good company without having the face to face sort of time. And I get that as as a extroverted introvert, I definitely understand that. I love seeing people's faces. I love seeing your face right now. So I understand from that point of view, why that's necessary, in some cases, but with a lot of folks who have cognitive disabilities, that's not really a good thing. So the the remote work that you had mentioned before, really, really helps in that regard. But going back to your original point, yes, the transportation is key in a number of cases. So if they don't have stable transportation, like, trying to think of a company, he's not he's not doing remote work. I don't know. I can't think of one off off the top of my head right now. But yeah, any of the ones that aren't doing it, they want people to come in, like even their interviews or in person, still Oh, yeah. Right. So

Gene Liverman: 7:04

I've seen companies where you've got to come in for at least part of the interview, even if the majority of the job is remote, they want to have that face time, during the interview process, which I can understand because there's a lot you can a lot you can learn about a person and their potential fit or not fit with a team by having that in person interaction that you just can't get through a video camera. Yeah, it's just the unfortunate reality of it.

RJ Hill: 7:33

And then stable housing. It's something that a lot of people don't think about. But if you don't have an address, or a stable address, a peel box, anything like that, and even sometimes Pio boxes won't work. If you don't have some sort of fixed address, you don't have bills, you can't prove certain things. And any any hard you know, snail mail that comes to you any any actual mail that comes to you might come to the wrong place. Like if you go in for a job interview, like hey, where do we where do we mail the the offer packet? You don't have a place, right?

Gene Liverman: 8:09

So gotta have some place to put on things like the employment forms for the tax records. Exactly. Even if you end up getting a electronic W2 you've got to have an address to put on there so that they know me, if nothing else, I have to know what you know, set of tax law was applied to you because that's based on where you live.

RJ Hill: 8:31

Exactly. So that's that's another sort of barrier to entry there for almost any, not even almost for any job.

Gene Liverman: 8:40

Yeah. Can you talk a little more about how that work overlaps with or specifically helps people with either in or were in prison or in jail or helps with recidivism or the lack of a trial that helps with keeping people from having a high recidivism rate.

RJ Hill: 9:04

Specifically, among folks who are neurodiverse, right? The rate of recidivism is ridiculously hard because they don't have the same ability, in some cases, to recognize the facial cues to understand all all the stuff that goes into human interaction. So they perceive things wrongly, and then things escalate from there. Right. And that doesn't help with the recidivism. So there's the neurodiverse community and then there's the I don't even know neurotypical Yeah, there. Yeah,

Gene Liverman: 9:42

yeah, neurotypical is generally the term I've heard.

RJ Hill: 9:45

Yes, you've got the neurodiverse and the neurotypical right, so for the neurotypical side of things, the ease of going back to what you know, when you leave prison is, it's like ridiculously high, it's so easy. Like, if I was, let's just say, I'm just using this as an example, if I'm selling heroin, I get arrested for that. I go to jail, I spend some time in jail, and I get back out. The thing that I know, is selling heroin. So I'm gonna go out, and I'm gonna do it again, because I know that there's money in this. And so

Gene Liverman: 10:27

if I understand correctly, generally, when you come out of incarceration, you don't come out with like, a pocket full of cash. So no, you actually come out with bills. Yeah, unless you want to live on the street, you've got to get some money, you got to get quits. And so the thing you know, is, unfortunately, the quickest way to even if you don't want to keep doing that, you got to do something to get back on your feet, unless you've got somebody out there to give you a hand. And other people don't want to ask for help, especially from their family, or the friends that they might have had when they went in.

RJ Hill: 11:00

Exactly. A lot of people don't want to ask for help. And on the other side of it, a lot of people have a sort of aversion to helping formerly incarcerated humans, because they don't know. You know, like, that's another thing. Was it a violent crime? Was it a non violent crime? Like, why were you in there? What were you doing things like that? And it's just a statement that comes with it. Yeah, it's a huge segment. And they also don't want to be an accessory to another crime, right. So understandable. But it stinks, right? It totally stinks. So the the idea here to reduce the rate of recidivism, right is to get into the prisons, to get into the jails, and to start training folks who are there already. So when they get out, if they've got, you know, six months a year left on their time, they're going through the program, they're learning the skills. So when they get out, they've got something to go to, they've got a foundation to stand upon, right. And that's number one. Number two, we're also taking, taking in laptops and things like that to format and then redistribute to these folks. So it's not like they're coming out, and then just, you know, walking down the side of the road, they're coming out, we're giving them the equipment, we're trying to get them. Vehicles, right. We're trying to get them housing. So all of that is part and parcel to pulling somebody back into society, like almost almost forcibly yanking them back into society and saying, Hey, here's your shot. Here's your foundation, stand on this and make something good. And so our hope is that this changes things. We don't have any numbers yet. But we're we're working on it.

Gene Liverman: 12:57

Can you talk a little bit about what it looks like to, as you said, go into the prisons and start working with them? Like, what is? What does that look like? Are y'all just giving them some curriculum and leaving it with them? Are y'all going in and actually spending time in there with them? Are you using the equipment that is already there? Are y'all bringing equipment in to do lessons? Like, what does that actually look like? For those of us who have never been in that scenario? Like I don't even know what the inside of a jail or prison looks like, thank goodness, I'm really happy that I have no reason to know about that. And I would imagine many people listening don't really have a mental picture of what it means to, as you said, go in and start working with them before they're released.

RJ Hill: 13:44

Sure. Just just to take even like a slightly further step back, the first thing we do is we call up the prison. And we talk to the warden, right, we call the jail, we called the prison, we say hey, are y'all kind of equipped for something like this? Would you would you be even be interested in something like this? Right. And then once we get there, we assess the situation. Right? So the typical techie answer is it depends.

Gene Liverman: 14:13

Oh, of course. Yeah. I mean, that's all technology is it depends.

RJ Hill: 14:17

Yeah, some prisons are actually fairly well equipped to handle this kind of thing. And some just have nothing. Right. Some, some have no computers, no, nothing. Zero. So there's a couple of ways that we can do this. We do so so we've, I don't want to say partnered with Pluralsight. But basically, that's that's our course platform that we're using. My buddy drew Furman over there. And I had talked about this a little bit, back and forth. And he, he was like, Oh, we also have this like really cool Pluralsight one where you can like do all this fun stuff and build courses and all that stuff. So anyway, we'll get into a second but that's what kind of spurred that for us. So we're not really a partner of Pluralsight and be cool if we were but That's, that's the platform that we use anyway, going forward. So when, when we actually get hands on keys, right, we've got, let's just say 10 prisoners sitting down, and they've got computers in front of them. Number one, if the prison has the computers great, all they have to be able to do is access the internet, and play videos. For the most part, there is a little bit of, you know, funtime stuff that we get going on where you're, you know, coding, and like maybe HTML or JavaScript or something like that. But most computers, thankfully, at this point in time, most computers can handle that level of, of coding, that makes sense. The other side of story is, there's no computers there, there's nothing there. So we have to talk with the warden, we have to talk with the officers around in and around the prison, and figure out a way to either get them funds to build that out, or to bring some stuff in, which is really, really difficult. So far, we've had a lot of issues trying to get stuff into prisons, because it's, it's this outside object that's coming in, and they

Gene Liverman: 16:05

have to You're bringing outside stuff in a secure environment, I can see where that would be fraught with all kinds of challenges for all the reasons that we see in dramas on TV.

RJ Hill: 16:13

Exactly. They're like, how do we know that they're not going to do X, Y, and Z with this? Yeah. Right. So it's really, really difficult. So we're still trying to set up a pipeline for that. And figure out all the things around that. I'm sure there's something out there. So if anyone, if anyone listening to this has like the the magical answer, if there's software, something, please reach out. But yeah, so So let's go back to the first situation, right, they've got computers in front of them, they log into Pluralsight, we've built some courses. We're not some courses, some paths on Pluralsight, with the Pluralsight courses, to say, look, if you are thinking about software, take a couple of these and see if you really want to get into the software, if you're thinking about cloud, take a couple of these and see if you're really into the cloud stuff. If you're thinking about management, you know, engineering managers, take a couple of these in the software these in the cloud to see if you can kind of get your head around it. And then some of these in the management aspect of things and see if you're into that, right, because it does take a little bit of you have to have the verbiage right? You have to be able to speak to the engineers to to to wrangle the cats, so to speak, right,

Gene Liverman: 17:25

you have to be able to understand the words that are being spoken to you to be able to then make decisions that are in the best interest of your team as a whole. Right, and

RJ Hill: 17:35

Brees you know, you know, use use JIRA or whatever other. I don't even

Gene Liverman: 17:43

know let's be honest, if you if you're just taking a stab in the dark how to get into the field, you need to understand at least the basics of how to use JIRA. You might not end up in JIRA. But if you can understand that you've got one step farther along and you've got about an 80 plus percent chance that that's what you're going to be using.

RJ Hill: 18:01

Yeah, for better or for worse. Right, right.

Gene Liverman: 18:03

I mean, that's the kind of thing with things that have kind of become ingrained in corporate culture is there are certain tools that you don't have to like on what you do have to know your way around them.

RJ Hill: 18:15

Like, like Jenkins. Well, yeah,

Gene Liverman: 18:17

yeah. Jenkins is a great example. I mean, it's, it's a Swiss army knife that can do anything. And because it can do anything, it has been shoehorned into everything, everything. There's also that old misnomer of oh, it's free. Well, we as free like a puppy. Yeah. Is not to knock Jenkins I do love Jenkins when it's used appropriately. But also, dear Lord, is it not the right tool for every job?

RJ Hill: 18:48

Hey, man, you gotta, there's always so that you gotta have they just get shoehorned into every single. Every job. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. But yeah, so once once we get them kind of kind of kicked off in the coursework, we let them figure out their own path, right? Because there's there are multiple paths within technology. You don't just have to do software. You don't just have to do cloud. You can be a manager. You can do generic it like we used to do, right? Like, hey, I love building computers. I love I know how the inner workings of computers work. I know how to format a hard drive. I know how to install an OS. I want to just do support work. You know, I want to build computers, you know, at University of West Georgia. Yeah, absolutely. That's fine. That's a perfectly fine path in tech. Like all these paths are different and they're all just as good as one another. So let's

Gene Liverman: 19:45

be honest, a low end tech job frequently pays better than a high end, retail job or definitely better than a fast food job. So I mean, even the most basic of tech jobs is still a pretty decent career especially When you're coming out of nothing?

RJ Hill: 20:01

Yeah, I mean, I would, I would say, you could probably find a college in the smallest town in America, and you're still probably making 15 to $20 an hour as an IT person.

Gene Liverman: 20:13

Yeah. So it's, it's not, it's frequently not the California, you know, 234 $100,000 a year stuff that has made some of the stereotypes. But that doesn't mean it's not still really good money. And if your place you live is in a super high cost of living area, you low end tech job paying reasonable wages for the area you live in, still pretty decent money may not be the best money, you're not trying to gloss over the fact that it could be pretty crummy in the grand scheme of things. But still bear and a lot of other options, and a heck of a lot more fun. And a lot more growth opportunity. Sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say it's a lot more growth opportunity. They are then with some of the alternatives to

RJ Hill: 21:04

that's a really good point. Yeah, the growth opportunities phenomenal, because just look at us. Look at us, there was so much potential coming out of it, to go into all the different things that we went into, right? Because we're you and I are pretty much not not that we went so far apart. But you went down the path of

Gene Liverman: 21:26

sort of more on the operation side and the ops Yeah.

RJ Hill: 21:30

And I went down the software engineering cloud engineering path. But funny enough, we kind of almost landed in similar roles, right? Because I'm building the infrastructure and stuff. And you're, you're handling similar sort of sort of in a roundabout kind of way, right?

Gene Liverman: 21:46

We're not that far apart on the grand scheme of things. I mean, I work for a software company now. And support engineers writing software and do some operations stuff, a little bit of programming. And, you know, we're I've got, my scales are tipped slightly to the opposite side as yours are. But we're both still in the same field still doing overlapping work.

RJ Hill: 22:08

Yeah, it's just interesting, how much how much stuff there is out there. Where you can, you can kind of go and in similar paths, but then kind of converge on the other side.

Gene Liverman: 22:20

So for the for the courses, you mentioned that you've got some programming courses and some cloud operations courses or cloud courses, as an engineering manager courses. Are there any other tracks that y'all kind of have? Or are those the main ones you're focused on right now?

RJ Hill: 22:42

So right now, those are the ones that we're focused on, just because the fact that we have people who can support those? Oh, yeah. So sort of as like, so for me, right? If somebody were to come through and say, Hey, I've got this question about JavaScript, or Java, or PHP, or you know, whatever language they're working on, I can probably help them like in in most cases, unless they're doing like Fortran and COBOL, I could probably help them with two. It would take me a minute, but so if they're coming through, and they have questions, I can help them troubleshoot. And there's also thankfully, on the Pluralsight side, there are some experts as well, I just have we haven't had the chance to really vet them. So I don't know. Yeah. You know how that works. But yeah, so we're staying in the vein of things that we can support for the moment and people and those veins that we have support for, from from external, right, so I have a couple of people who are helping out, you know, different buddies who will come in and oh, yeah, I'll you know, donate, you know, 10 hours, you know, a month to, to help. And so we've got that going on, too. So if we, if we had folks who were like, Hey, I'm in the ops area, or hey, I'm a sysadmin, or, you know, any of those things where they can be like, oh, yeah, I'll throw in, you know, an hour a week to help folks troubleshoot stuff. That'd be super cool. And we can probably expand from there. Yeah, that's cool.

Gene Liverman: 24:10

As a interesting aside, I know you were kind of making jokes about Fortran and COBOL. But as it turns out, if you can get somebody to learn COBOL it's an incredibly lucrative. Oh, yeah. Language, because COBOL was still extensively used, especially in the banking industry.

RJ Hill: 24:28

Yeah, banking and insurance. Yeah. Big money. Yeah.

Gene Liverman: 24:33

It's, it was fascinating when I learned not long ago, just how prevalent COBOL still is, of course, you know, if we're going back to our university background, the student information system that most universities use, has a non trivial amount of COBOL is still underpinning a banner unless, unless something's changed that I'm not aware of, I believe banner still has a non trivial amount of COBOL under the hood banner So, kind of stepping forward, you said you also work with people that are out. Is it kind of the same program? Or do y'all have a facility that y'all worked out? Or how does that work?

RJ Hill: 25:13

Unfortunately, we don't have a facility and I think, for better for worse, it's probably going to remain that way. Just because it's, it would be hard to

Gene Liverman: 25:27

think a lot of practicalities are a lot of there's a lot of logistics that come with having a facility.

RJ Hill: 25:33

It's it's easier for us right now to be like, hey, you know, Joe's over here and gents over there, right? Let's just find them places that they can be over there. Versus Hey, everyone meet up in Carrollton or Hey, everyone meet up in Atlanta, or hey, everyone meet up in Athens, right? Because you can like I mean, even even just this this very, I guess we're not a small state of Georgia. But even in just Georgia alone, right. Atlanta itself is massive. pretty massive. Yeah. What's the saying? It's like, it's it takes an hour to get from anywhere in Atlanta to Atlanta. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a huge time sink. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to optimize this, the small amount of time that we have on Earth anyway. So why force everyone to drive to one central location, just get them set up where they can be set up where they're comfortable being set up. And again, that's the other thing. Going back to the neurodiversity thing. Some folks aren't comfortable meeting up in person, right? Some folks aren't comfortable going to a centralized location. They're they're comfortable in their, you know, you can see my office back here that the listeners can't really see I don't know if you're going to video for the video, video. Just audio. My Yeah. So So my background is, this is this is comfort. It's all my all my machinery, I've got a 3d printer behind me and all kinds of stuff. I got jackets over the back of my chair. I've got all kinds of goofy stuff all over and I'm comfortable in this zone. So like, I don't want to take that away from from the folks that were that we're trying to help.

Gene Liverman: 27:16

I would imagine that. I would imagine in a lot of cases, they've got enough mental stress and stuff going on with having whatever challenges they're coming from. And with learning something new, that being in an uncomfortable location would just be yet another barrier to moving forward.

RJ Hill: 27:33

Yep. And so it's yeah, you're absolutely right. It's It's hard enough to get out. And there's a lot of other things too, right. So if they were to come to the centralized location, right, and they miss a parole hearing or, you know, a check in with their parole officer, or any of those things, right. And sometimes they can't leave the area that they're at, oh, yeah, they might be under house arrest, they might, there might be so many other things. So we're trying to make it again, as as open as possible, as flexible as possible. So

Gene Liverman: 28:07

hello, Ross, anyone's, have you ever had any work with like halfway houses or parole officers or parole boards or anything like that? So not

RJ Hill: 28:15

yet? We're, we have plans to go down that path. It's just getting set up in totally. Yeah. It's purely curious. But ya know, yeah, we definitely do. That's, that's why we got on the website. We're not just, we're not just trying to focus on just individuals with with criminal backgrounds. It's it's focusing in recovery to like, we want to help those people out because, again, regardless of the rate of recidivism, right, I have tons of friends, like a phenomenal amount of friends back home in New York, who are constantly in and out of recovery. I understand, on a very basic level, what that's like, or like, it's, it's just kind of ingrained in me.

Gene Liverman: 29:07

So for those listening alone, who aren't quite as familiar, will you elaborate on what you mean by recovery?

RJ Hill: 29:12

Sure. Yeah. So again, it depends, but there's a lot of different types of recovery. The recovery I'm specifically talking about is folks who've been heavily using heroin, addicted to heroin, and are trying to recover. They're going to methadone clinics and things like that. So they're inactive recovery for their addictions. There's an there's a ton of addictions to is not just heroin, there's many different addictions. But recovery looks different. Not only for everyone in the same vein, but for everyone who's got different addictions, right. So there's so many different types of recovery that folks go through, but the recovery process is mostly the same as As the post prison process, right, you're talking, you're you're meeting up with someone to make sure that you are on a path and on the right path, and you're you're trying your best to, to stay away from the things that got you there in the first place. Totally makes sense. So it's, and it's again, it's, it's tough. So when people are going through this recovery process, again, same as the person, they've got a lot of stuff that's going on in their lives. Yeah. Right. They're going to these meetings, you know, whether it's AAA or, you know, some some sort of support meeting where they have sponsors and things like that, or they're just meeting with their sponsor and not a larger group meeting. Regardless, they have they have time commitments, that that they need to be there for, whether it's, you know, some sort of tele presence thing or whether they're there in person. Yeah, and all that kind of stuff. So it's a huge chunk of their lives that is taken up by this recovery process. And the whole entire point of that, again, is to make sure that they don't go back into it. Right, and us coming through and trying to help them build that foundation is another step in the process of helping them not fall back to the same things. Right.

Gene Liverman: 31:16

Really cool. We're going to start wrapping things up here. Is there anything you would like to add own about either the organization or any other thoughts you want to add related to other things you're working on? Or just anything that was extra? Do you like to share

RJ Hill: 31:35

anything else extra? Well, I always want to shout out every girl shines, mostly because I also donate some time over there. I haven't been very good with donating my time over there. But whenever they need tech support, I try to get get a little time in over there. And they have a fantastic mission. So check out every girl shines.org. And if you're so inclined, check out engineered reform.com. There's just engineer de en G I N E R. ed reform, Ari fo rm.com.

Gene Liverman: 32:07

And be sure to put links to both of those on the show notes so that people can find them and just click right through to them.

RJ Hill: 32:13

Yeah, if you feel like donating, we've we've got our 501 C three, we will send out receipts, we need laptops, and we need cash. So in the

Gene Liverman: 32:24

range of laptops, what what constitutes like the minimum of something that would be useful for you, because I know, you're, we're recording this just after Christmas. I imagine many people got a new computer and have something whether it's an old crappy Chromebook they're getting rid of or an old laptop they're getting rid of or just don't, maybe they weren't thinking about getting rid of it, but they don't really need it anymore. What would be something that you would say, Hey, do you have something that's at least x that would be really useful for us? And probably not so useful for what you're doing? Now?

RJ Hill: 32:58

That's a good question. So typically, when, when someone asked me that, I kind of throw I turned it back around to them. So I'd say, Jean, whatever you think, would be a good laptop for you to develop on. I'll take it.

Gene Liverman: 33:13

I was more thinking about this for someone who's not a developer, but might be listening and might have a spare machine. So I'm guessing something that shipped originally with at least like what, Windows seven windows? Eight on it. Yeah, that's something that's something that's been made and what like the last six years?

RJ Hill: 33:35

I would say Yeah, anything. So let's see. 2022. Yeah, so anything 2016 or above? Probably pretty good. We can make use of Chromebooks too, right? There's there's ways to finagle stuff for Chromebooks.

Gene Liverman: 33:49

And then on the Mac side, just going off of kind of personal impression, I would guess anything 2015 or newer, but the 2015 models that I've used, could easily do what you're talking about. So anything 2015 or newer would probably work.

RJ Hill: 34:04

Yeah, most likely. I'm trying to think of if there's any any caveats there, but no, I think I think anything. Yeah. 2015 2016. Anything up from there is pretty good. So yeah, if you got computers,

Gene Liverman: 34:16

and engineered reform website, have contact info so that if somebody did want to donate something,

RJ Hill: 34:22

all of the contact info Very cool.

Gene Liverman: 34:26

Well, hopefully, somebody's listening. Hey, that'd be a good use for that thing, sitting in my call was that are sitting off in the corner?

RJ Hill: 34:32

Yeah, that'd be awesome. That'd be super helpful.

Gene Liverman: 34:35

RJ, thank you so much for your time. I greatly appreciate you sharing what you're doing. And I think it's some really great sounding work, anything that will help us help people better themselves so that we can reduce the number of people in prison and a productive way. I think it's an absolutely wonderful thing. So thank you very much. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Have a good day. You too. You've been listening to the volunteer technologist podcast. This is a value for value podcast, which means I'll never charge you to listen. That said it costs money to produce and host the show. If you got value from today's episode, then I hope you'll consider contributing to the show's ongoing production. The best way to do this is by sending a boost with a new podcast app such as fountain, since a portion will be automatically shared with any guest who chooses to participate. Alternatively, you can contribute directly by visiting bar me a coffee.com forward slash Jean bean. You can find shownotes transcripts and links to the things talked about in today's episode at volunteer technologist.com Thanks for listening